Exclude standard Cycle & Foot preset from NO - introduce a replacement

[balchen]

Description, Motivation & Context

The community tagging guideline for Norway says to not use bicycle=designated on shared foot and cycleways because highway=cycleway directly includes bicycle=designated. When mappers use iD for editing, iD will provide a warning for every shared foot and cycleway that is tagged according to Norwegian standard, highlighting the lack of bicycle=designated. This list of incorrect warnings masks real warnings that mappers should address.

Since #1411 seems to have stalled, I'm reopening the PR to exclude NO from the Cycle & Foot preset. When NO is excluded from the Cycle & Foot preset, there is no other preset that covers this functionality. I've added an NO-specific Cycle & Foot preset to resolve that issue. If there is a wish to generalise this preset to cover other countries that suffer from the same problem with Cycle & Foot, it can be extended.

Related issues

#1411
#1225
#1193

Links and data

Relevant OSM Wiki links:

• https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/No:Map_Features#Sykkel

Relevant tag usage stats:

…

Checklist and Test-Documentation Template

Read on to get your PR merged faster…

Follow these steps to test your PR yourself and make it a lot easier and faster for maintainers to check and approve it.

This is how it works:

1. After you submit your PR, the system will create a preview and comment on your PR:

   🍱 Your pull request preview is ready.
   If this is your first contribution to this project, the preview will not happen right away but requires a click from one of the project members. We will do this ASAP.

2. Once the preview is ready, use it to test your changes.

3. Now copy the snippet below into a new comment and fill out the blanks.

4. Now your PR is ready to be reviewed.

## Test-Documentation

### Preview links & Sidebar Screenshots

<!-- Use the preview to find examples, select the feature in question and **copy this link here**.
     Find examples of nodes/areas. Find examples with a lot of tags or very few tags. – Whatever helps to test this thoroughly.
     Add relevant **screenshots** of the sidebar of those examples. -->

Tested on: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1424485656

Old behaviour:
<img width="1016" height="824" alt="image" src="https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/8507d647-c8b5-4a46-91e0-ebb7aedc857a" />

New behaviour:
<img width="1002" height="781" alt="image" src="https://github.com/user-attachments/assets/e4c37a4a-d09c-4932-b968-f6132a78256b" />

Tag upgrade warning is gone.

<!-- FYI: What we will check:
     - Is the [icon](https://github.com/ideditor/schema-builder/blob/main/ICONS.md) well chosen.
     - Are the fields well-structured and have good labels.
     - Do the dropdowns (etc.) work well and show helpful data. -->

All other elements of the NO preset are the same as standard preset.

### Search

<!-- **Test the search** of your preset and share relevant **screenshots** here.
     - Test the preset name as search terms.
     - Also test the preset terms and aliases as search terms (if present). -->

### Info-`i`

<!-- **Test the info-i** for your fields and preset and share relevant **screenshots** here.
     The info needs to help mappers understand the preset and when to use it.
     [Learn more…](https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/blob/main/CONTRIBUTING.md#info-i)
 -->

### Wording

- [ ] American English
- [ ] `name`, `aliases` (if present) use Title Case
- [ ] `terms` (if present) use lower case, sorted A-Z
<!-- Learn more in https://github.com/openstreetmap/id-tagging-schema/blob/main/GUIDELINES.md#2-design-the-preset -->

[github-actions]

🍱 Your pull request preview is ready

Please use this preview to check your changes. Ideally use the test documentation template and document your test results by commenting on the PR. This will speed up the review process for everyone.

FYI, once this PR is merged, you can use the iD Editor Preview to test your changes in interaction with all other changes.

[balchen]

Test-Documentation

Preview links & Sidebar Screenshots

Tested on: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1424485656

Old behaviour:

New behaviour:

Tag upgrade warning is gone.

All other elements of the NO preset are the same as standard preset.

Search

Info-i

Wording

• American English
• name, aliases (if present) use Title Case
• terms (if present) use lower case, sorted A-Z

[balchen]

Re-tested in Denmark and the general foot and cycleway preset is used there.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103537693

I repeated the procedure for foot and cycle crossing -- left the original with exclude: "no" and introduced a new version with include: "no" that does not add bicycle=designated.

I can test these too if the preview is updated.

[balchen]

Verified that a Danish crossing is subject to bicycle=designated.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1306327167

The Norwegian crossing is not subject to bicycle=designated.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1083050466

[balchen]

All tests are complete. Please review and merge at will :)

[tordans]

Thanks for preparing the PR and testing @balchen.

Just so you know, I will not review / merge this myself but wait for @tyrasd to give feedback.

Personally, I am very unsure if we should make changes like you propose here. I wrote about in our prev. conversations but for a summary:

• Update: Introduce suggestTags to manage validation warnings ideditor/schema-builder#251
• I really don't see the issue you are having with this tagging. It is well established, documented and in use. There are good reasons to do it this way. And yes, it can be seen as double tagging, but I and a majority accepted that fact as a non relevant disadvantage. The only issue I can see with the tagging is what you described about QA tools. But that only happens because of the separate tagging definition you apply locally … so it is self-made.
• I agree that we need local presets whenever there are nuances in local tagging… but at the same time, we have to strive for a shared tagging schema in OSM, that has as little fragmentation as possible. This is what this repo is all about…
• Every time we create local presets with separate files for countries, we increase the complexity of maintaining this repo by a lot. So this is not just a one time investment, but it will cost us every time we look into changing those presets… – The last time it worked on improving the preset it already took me super long to understand the setup, update everything right and test it in all the right places. – With this change, we now have 3 presets for the same thing. That is a problem IMO.

[balchen]

I don't think this is the correct place to discuss tagging semantics or to support or oppose community decisions. If you want to object to community decision on tagging standards, I think that should be done in the community forum and other relevant channels.

There are several countries that don't use highway=path for combined foot- and cycleways and insteady rely on highway=cycleway + foot=designated without bicycle=designated.

iD creates an unnecessary amount of warnings whenever we edit these ways. Other editors and individual mappers don't follow iD's presets and so there will be a large number of cases where iD creates a LOT of unwanted noise and in reality forces its perception of the tagging schema on others.

I noted the original schema developer's objection to removing bicycle=designated. Even if I disagree vehemently with the principle of this approach, in the spirit of respecting other opinions, I'm proposing that we make iD also work for everyone who does not share that particular point of view and who have made a community decision to do it otherwise.

Shouldn't this extend both ways?

Any discussion on the OSM tagging schema is welcomed on the forum, but the community decisions should be respected.

I know that mappers in BE and DK have also wanted to get rid of the unwanted iD warnings about bicycle=designated. Like I said in the comments, this can be extended to cover other countries too.

As for the technical aspects, yes, the repo gets harder to maintain whenever there are fundamental changes. That should not override community decisions.

[tsobuskerudbyen]

I don't think this is the correct place to discuss tagging semantics or to support or oppose community decisions. If you want to object to community decision on tagging standards, I think that should be done in the community forum and other relevant channels.

I agree with @balchen here. As a long-time user of iD I see a lot of new users follows the auto-suggested tagging edits blindly.

[matkoniecz]

If you want to object to community decision on tagging standards, I think that should be done in the community forum and other relevant channels.

for me part of the problem is that I have no idea whether it is a local mapping community decision/preference or not

[balchen]

If you want to object to community decision on tagging standards, I think that should be done in the community forum and other relevant channels.

for me part of the problem is that I have no idea whether it is a local mapping community decision/preference or not

I linked to the community wiki page on the subject where the community decisions are documented. Do you need something else to have an idea?

[matkoniecz]

the problem (from my own extensive experience with OSM Wiki) is that sometimes wiki pages contain absolute nonsense detached from anything real

and there is also language barrier

[matkoniecz]

and I do not planning to start a thread at forum (which one would be main/sole one used by local community) as I am not able to promise merge of that PR if they would clearly want it :/

[balchen]

and I do not planning to start a thread at forum (which one would be main/sole one used by local community) as I am not able to promise merge of that PR if they would clearly want it :/

So.... do you need something else to have an idea? I'm putting it to you to make the requirement here if you are not satisfied with what I have already presented.

Here are some threads in which the issue has been raised or confirmed by other community members.

https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/apply-different-tagging-validation-per-country-in-id/111391
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/id-editor-validation-rules-in-norway/111783

[balchen]

Any progress on this?

[matkoniecz]

In general in issue trackers like this one progress, if any, is visible on the issue tracker. For example above your comment there is link to ideditor/schema-builder#251

Though you commented there, so you are likely aware of it.

More specifically, this repository would benefit from help on reviewing opened pull requests and issues. Some of them "only" need testing that requires no coding experience.

I have somewhere list of likely especially fruitful ones to test that I try to look at in my spare hobby time, if you are interested I can share it.
If you prefer you can also list at about 100 of open and waiting pull requests. And treat PR, review it and suggest changes/rejecting PR/merging PR.
Or request restarting PR preview site if it went down in meantime.

I put significant amount of time in helping like this (though both me and others are NOT obligated to do this), as result of this and actions of others pull request count is now two digit number, not three digit number. But sadly there are still some PRs that were waiting for literally years at this point.
If people want to help, it is highly welcome and makes more likely that maybe there PR will be processed next. Though it does not guarantee merging.

This one is extra complicated for reasons mentioned in comments above and linked discussions.

In general I have ambition to reduce open pull request count to single digit number, but as I am doing it purely as hobby and I can only point mainstays toward seemingly mergeable ones it will take years, maybe months - if I still continue to have an much time I have now for that.

[matkoniecz]

posted on https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/id-editor-validation-rules-in-norway/111783/10